Sad to hear about the school shooting in Ohio. 1 dead and 4 wounded.
At what point does this new generation of parent and school realize that the more you suppress normal behavior, like fist fighting, the more it comes out in more violent ways? Kids don't duke it out anymore, because well, they will get expelled and possibly go to jail. So now, they are forced to suppress their frustration and anger to the point of exploding. And that's what happens.
Bullying and fist fighting are now things that are frowned upon, that were just a normal part of growing up in "my time". But pacifist parents that won't spank their kids, or have other kids arrested for a fist fight are responsible for raising this generation of cowards.
Only a coward goes to school armed, against a bunch of unarmed kids and opens fire, instead of settling his differences with clenched fists.
Instead of teaching kids it's ok to settle differences with closed fists and white knuckles, like we all did years ago, we teach them ALL violence is wrong. And they never learn the lessons that served us so well growing up. Young men are SUPPOSED to fist fight. It actually builds character, respect, and believe it or not, often friendships.
I hope at some point things change, and the things that should be "normal" in youth, become normal once again.
At what point does this new generation of parent and school realize that the more you suppress normal behavior, like fist fighting, the more it comes out in more violent ways? Kids don't duke it out anymore, because well, they will get expelled and possibly go to jail. So now, they are forced to suppress their frustration and anger to the point of exploding. And that's what happens.
Bullying and fist fighting are now things that are frowned upon, that were just a normal part of growing up in "my time". But pacifist parents that won't spank their kids, or have other kids arrested for a fist fight are responsible for raising this generation of cowards.
Only a coward goes to school armed, against a bunch of unarmed kids and opens fire, instead of settling his differences with clenched fists.
Instead of teaching kids it's ok to settle differences with closed fists and white knuckles, like we all did years ago, we teach them ALL violence is wrong. And they never learn the lessons that served us so well growing up. Young men are SUPPOSED to fist fight. It actually builds character, respect, and believe it or not, often friendships.
I hope at some point things change, and the things that should be "normal" in youth, become normal once again.
I agree that fist fighting is both normal and good for the development of young men. That positive feeling does not extend to bullying, however. In fact, I feel this absolutist pacifism makes bullying worse for this generation. Had I been able to use my fists without fear of legal repercussions during high school, I would have enjoyed a much more pleasant stay.
ReplyDeletei agree with this, i actually do. my best friends to this day are guys i fought with growing up , and one of them actually bullied me for years thatw as until i f***ed him up bu nonentheless hes my best friend now for 10 years or more... along with the spanking man i hated and would shit my pants everytime my father or mother would whoop me but by the next day i still loved them and enjoyed the food they cooked for me. i hear more about violent shootings and killings now a days then before and not even from ghetto areas just from all over now.. idk whats wrong with todays society, some ppl even react differently than others would to bullying or spanking. not sure what do to with this one as i am still not wise enough to get a full grasp on the whole scope of why kids act this way now a days.. one things for sure is that ppl shooting un armed unaware victims is the most cowardly thing to do. and it ticks me off a lot , smh
ReplyDeletePaul,
ReplyDeleteI respect your opinion. That being said here is mine. I think violence in high school scenarios is, in most cases unjustified, but at some point a fist fight is probably unavoidable and necessary. Honestly, I have never been in a fight. Reason one is I was never really "bullied" to the point of need to fight, and reason two is for the simple fact that most of my arguments/quarrels were over some athletic endeavor that is pretty easily settled, play again.
I am not as big, strong, and probably any other attribute you can think of, as you. But, I am not afraid to stick my nose into a scuffle. I think this is what a lot of people are missing these days. Grow a pair, say what needs to be said, and if necessary do what needs to be done. (PS- I am working on my physical stature, haha)
All I know is that we have become passive in just about every endeavor you can think of. Communication is now via the internet, I know I am using it right meow, and frankly people don't know how to deal with other people anymore. I look forward to the day when people can tell others there thoughts, and accept criticism from others.
Finally, there is a difference between a single act of "standing up for oneself" and repeated offenses. If your kid is constantly beating the fuck out of other kids some thing needs to be done. Parents need to realize that one act of violence does not condemn a child, but repeated offenses needs to be examined.
Overall, I agree with you. I just think a lot of the kid's issues arise from the parents. Don't coddle them and give them everything, and they will have skin thick enough to get through high school, the most trivial and, in my opinion, a socially meaningless part of their life.
In Summation- everyone just drink a nice glass of harden the fuck up.
It's sad to see someone lose their life, especially over something, Im assuming, as petty as a "high school" problem
-Dave
P.S. sorry for the rant.
Allowing two people to fight who want to fight each other is one thing. Bullying is another thing altogether.
ReplyDeleteSome people just don't have the tools to be fighters. Making fist-fighting more acceptable isn't going to help them. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to live their lives peacefully. After all, we're supposedly living in a civilized society.
If a bullied individual feels it's worth throwing his life away to use a weapon to swing the balance of power in his favor that's his prerogative. He's willing to suffer the consequences so what's to be said about it. If the schoolyard is to be an environment of survival of the fittest then we can't cry because someone chooses to take fitness to the next level. That wouldn't be "alpha".
If kids want to fight they are going to fight. Rules or no rules, that's the way it's been and always will be. If a rule against shooting up the school isn't going to stop them, a rule against fighting has no impact whatsoever.
It's not about being "fighter" or winning a fight. It's about standing up for yourself in the face of adversity. This is what molds youth into strong men.
DeleteSecond, all civilizations had fighting in them.
Finding a pecking order is a normal NORMAL part of growing up. And it's been that way since the dawn of time.
The reason kids resort to cowardly behavior now, when this kind of thing used to be incredibly uncommon, is because pacifist parents believe that all degrees of violence is wrong. So young men can't have a healthy round of fisticuffs to settle disputes. But now, kids can get arrested for such. So these outlets have been closed off. And when that happens these behaviors manifest itself in extreme ways.
I mean, apparently this kid was "bullied" on Twitter.
Maybe I'm just a big softy but for me there was always a distinction in my life between rough-housing and malicious "bullying." My friends and I would fight, wrestle, and beat up on each other just for the hell of it. Fighting hard enough for a clear winner to emerge but not hard enough for anyone to get seriously hurt. But it was always done amongst friends and we always knew we'd be walking away fine. I think the loss of this is undoubtably regrettable.
ReplyDeleteBut when I was a 100 pound high school freshmen a 250 pound junior o-lineman grabbed me when I was walking back from a shower, threw me into a corner, and sprayed lysol in my eyes. I never turned him in because, at the time, I believe that he would retaliate by doing something like breaking my legs. - I could do without that kind of bullying or whatever you want to call it. I call it Battery.
Children should have rights, the same as Adults. If kids choose to get into scuffles with each-other, then, to a certain extent, that's their business. Give them some space for that.
But if a kid is being assaulted by another kid, and the victim wants none of it, then we have a real problem. This is especially true if the attacker is much stronger or better armed than the victim.
And yet somehow you lived.
DeleteI'm still trying to find where I condoned bullying. I didn't.
I said kids shouldn't be picked up from school and thrown in jail for fist fighting. There's always lines to be drawn in these situations. Getting beaten with weapons or jumped by multiple people is cause for being arrested. A "fair fight" between two kids, is not.
You guys realize that the kids like the Columbine boys were not bullied, right? They actually bragged about being bullies.
But this particular kid shot people because he got "internet bullied."
This is the pussification of America. If that kid had an issue with someone that said something on Twitter, learn how to deal with it, without resorting to guns or death.
People aren't teaching their kids how to resolve conflict. They are just teaching them that ALL conflict is bad and wrong. It's fucking stupid to the Nth degree.
Fighting is a normal behavior between adolescent males.
Fisticuffs among youth males is normal and healthy, and has been seen and observed in every culture and every time period known to man. When you try to oppress these things with kittens and kite flying, you turn boys into pussies that have no idea how to deal with the "rough kid" who wants to throw down. Then he believes he has no choice but to resort to shooting people rather than understanding how to take up for himself.
I don't blame the kids, I blame the parents for raising these kids in a pacifist way.
You're a fuckin' idiot, you prove it every time you open your mouth on an opinion post.
ReplyDeleteWell at least you responded with an intelligent retort. Great point man. I see what you're getting at there. I think I'll change my stance on this.
Delete@ Handera, Would you speak like this to Paul in person?
DeleteYou're just another fucking internet warrior that needs a good bitch slap.
Everyone gets an opinion Steven. There's nothing wrong with someone having an opposing view of me, or even being an asshole about it. Remember, I get all the power to be offended or not. I didn't have to approve his comment, but then that'd just make me worse than him.
DeleteIt's better to exercise the power to not be offended or pissed off when someone insults you because they lack the ability to intelligently oppose your opinion.
Yeah I know fella, I quite agree, but its just a pet peeve of mine the way people behave behind a keyboard, and technology in general. I guess I'm old school, yes it's fine to disagree with someone's opinion but have some respect. Anyway, enough of that, here's a saying I have hanging around my desk...
Delete"Any person capable of angering you becomes your master;
he can anger you only when you permit yourself to be disturbed by him"
Have a good one grasshopper.
I'm with ya dawg. People love to become keyboard warriors when they already know in real life, they would never run their mouth like that.
DeleteI already know it, so no need to point out the obvious. ;-)
And great quote.
easy paul got a real hard ass on our hands!
ReplyDeleteAnyone with a Kiss picture in their profile is a hard mah fucka.
DeleteHandgun laws in America. Discussion is pointless.
ReplyDeleteYup, simple as that.
DeleteDo you all remember when the video below went on the news. All the pundits said the victim did the wrong thing. You should work out your differences, etc. All I know is you have to teach your kids to stand up for themselves. I tell my daughter(8) and son(6) that it is good to tell the teacher etc., but if this something happens daily you better do something about it. You may get in trouble with the school but not with us at home.
ReplyDeleteIf your kid is being bullied online, why let them go online? Seriously, they don't know how to handle it so help them figure out the whole sticks and stones thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B20uNgcmxok
Too many people having too many goddamn kids!
ReplyDeleteReally doe, I'm with you on principle about fist-fighting being better than gunplay, but how about simple respect, honesty, and accountability? We can't take the fight outta fighters, or asshole outta assholes, but if some simple values were more prevalent, there'd be a lot less stupid shit going on.
Thanks for the forum, Paul.
There should always be respect and honor. That should be at the forefront of every males principles. But sometimes difference can't be solved through words. In these instances, an HONORABLE fight isn't a problem. And shouldn't be viewed as one.
DeleteThat is where I believe we have gone wrong. You're hitting on part of it. The loss of respect for your fellow man, and no honor amongst young men. These traits have been lost because they don't manifest in these young men because of their parents.
This, in a lot of ways, traces back to men getting owned by their women and goes from there. Fathers are no longer hunters, they have been moved into a gatherer role by our society and by overbearing women.
At some point men need to become men again. Teach their sons what respect, strength, and honor mean. Instead of getting railroaded by their women and being overall, just general pussies.
This has nothing to do with the shooter, but that's ok with me, since I try to avoid blaming crazy actions by a few outliers on general social trends. If suppressing violence in schools was a significant factor in school shootings, I think we'd see one every day, just as if bullying caused gay kids to commit suicide, there wouldn't be a single gay adult. There's always going to be a huge element of personal choice and individual circumstances.
DeleteI've been thinking about your thoughts on the modern decline of manhood, and I don't really think it's about men being dominated by their women. I think this is bigger than a gender war; more traditionally feminine characteristics such as obedience and compromise are simply more optimal for most citizens in modern society. That's not a value statement, just a factual statement about how a social system seems to work. The vast majority of people are going to have jobs where physical strength is useless, characteristics like honor, competitiveness, independence, and willingness to take charge are impediments to smooth functioning which more female attributes like malleability, obedience and compromise promote. Just to give a concrete example, would anyone with a shred of honor ever endorse a statement like "The customer is always right," that is so popular now? Fuck no, it's never been honorable to allow other people to dictate right and wrong just to make a profit. But taking a principled stand is an impediment to commerce. This is not to say that there isn't still a place in society for the aforementioned male attributes, there certainly still is. The overwhelming majority of CEOs and politicians are still male, and likely always will be. But those positions are becoming increasingly rare. For everyone in a true leadership position, there are hundreds of thousands of underlings, and women (and feminized men) are just more naturally suited to be underlings. Our society is still male dominated and probably always will be, but only a small fraction of males are actually part of that dominant class; the rest of us face the choice of becoming increasingly feminized, or being marginalized. Boys in schools face the choice of giving up their honor and aggression or being put on the fast track to prison; Either way they are prevented from becoming rocks in the gears of corporate machinery. And the people in charge who want their employees to be submissive little bitches are probably more often than not, men, not women.
I'm certainly not saying it should be this way. Far from it. That's just what I see as happening. I have no idea what the fuck to do about it.
tl;dr, the more centralized and mechanized our society becomes, the smaller the optimal chiefs to Indians ratio becomes, and women make better Indians.
Paul, thoughts on this?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnn.com/2012/02/27/justice/california-girl-dead/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
Tragic that she died, obviously.
DeleteBut nothing in that write up says anything out line happened.
No weapons were used, the fight was brief, and both walked away.
I musta had 50 incidents like this growing up.
My guess is, she had an undiscovered medical condition and the fight exacerbated it. This kind of thing would be an incredibly rare exception.
Nathan - "more traditionally feminine characteristics such as obedience and compromise are simply more optimal for most citizens in modern society. That's not a value statement, just a factual statement about how a social system seems to work."
ReplyDeleteWhat society is it you speak of? Just the current one we live in? In other countries? This is a very blank statement that is really just based in opinion.
Second, compromise became a feminine training when? Almost every ruler or king throughout history knows the value of compromise.
Obedience? Every soldier or warrior that has ever existed has generally had a superior that he fought and bled for. That or obedience to something larger than himself.
These are not feminine traits or characteristics, and I'm not sure how you drew the parallel there.
"Boys in schools face the choice of giving up their honor and aggression or being put on the fast track to prison; Either way they are prevented from becoming rocks in the gears of corporate machinery. And the people in charge who want their employees to be submissive little bitches are probably more often than not, men, not women."
This is all true, however. But where it really starts with men these days, is in their own relationships. With both their women and their kids. When a son watches his dad get bossed around by his mother, how does he learn how to be a leader in the house? He doesn't. He learns it's ok to be a little bitch. Dad doesn't serve as a symbol of strength and honor. He doesn't take his son out and talk to him about defending himself, because "your mother said fighting is wrong."
We don't have enough MEN raising this current crop of males. We have feminized chodes who have no clue what it is to be a man. The same chodes who don't understand why going hunting is manly, or why telling your woman "no" is important.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to raise men that have strength and honor, YOU must be the example of strength and honor. And no man that let's his woman rule as a dictator sets an example of strength and honor.
So it all starts at home, and with how a man behaves in these relationships.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteI don't think we as men are supposed to fist fight. I am raising my 3 boys the same way my dad raised me: keep your hands to yourself and respect everyone until it is time to not respect. Basically, unless someone puts their hands on you, or advances towards you in an obvious attack, there is no reason to take it to another level. Once you are out of options, absolutely take care of business.
One thing my line of work has taught me is it doesnt matter what they say to you. They can talk shit till they are blue in the face, hell the more they bark the less chance they are going to actually nut up and do something. Words will never cause me to react in violence.
My kids are taught the same. Hands to yourself until it is time to react to a situation. My 8 year old son already comes home and talks about kids in his class that bully. I tell him plain and simple, if he touches you touch him back with a jab, cross, hook. I will go to the school and deal with the aftermath. And we practice it religously as a boxer told me once, most people on the street can't handle a good jab, cross, hook.
Fighting just to fight proves nothing. Fighting to put a bully in his place is worth every ounce of blood. A bully is only a bully until someone breaks his nose...
-Rick
Which is is Rick?
DeleteAre men not supposed to fist fight, or are they supposed to take it to another level when someone doesn't respect you?
Don't fist fight, or take care of business when you're out of options?
If you want peace, prepare for war.
If I may, I think what you meant to say was, I don't think we as men are supposed to fist fight without just cause.
Exactly Paul. Punching some in the face because they told someone on Facebook that you were a pussy is dumb. Yes, it was disrespectful that they called you a pussy, but was it enough to smash someone over that? I dont think so. Words dont mean shit, they are just words.
ReplyDeleteTaking care of business after a bully shoves you down in front of a hall way full of your peers is completely different. Taking care of business after you watch a bully punch someone else is also different.
Justice should be handed out an eye for an eye.
Too many kids are locked up with life sentences because they fought over something dumb, it went too far, and someone died. That isnt protecting yourself. That isnt self defense. I will support my sons 100% of they fought for a reason. If they started it, forget it. They will face the music alone.
I try to put things into perspective. How do you know that the guy who is being loud and obnoxious at the bar doesnt have an unknown medical condition? And by you smacking him you wont cause that artery to burst in his head thus ultimately causing his death? There isnt a single jury that will let you off the hook if you did it over words. You will sit in a prison cell, in PA that means life without parole. No thanks. Now, if that same dude hits you first, then all bets are off. That is self defense.
So YES, if we or our loved ones are attacked physically we have every right to defend ourselves with force. Outside of that...be careful.
-Rick
My sentiments exactly brother. If you are going to throw down, do so over something honorable or because of a situation you had no other choice in. Give options. But if you DO have to throwdown, meet violence with more violence. Tear that mother fuckers skin off and wear it around as a suit.
DeletePREACH! I could not agree with this post any more. I am a government teacher, and am flabbergasted at this generation's definition of what a "man" is and how they see themselves as entering into manhood.
ReplyDeleteObviously, fighting and learning how to turn violence into constructive destruction is only one piece of the "growing up" puzzle, but, I believe it is an important one; but, I digress...
One day in class, fighting came up and as a class we got on a tangent about fighting and growing up and taking punches, etc, etc. Point of the story is, I ended up taking a poll in each one of my classes. The question was: "How many of you have every been punched in the face?"
Out of my 162 students and throughout 6 different classes, 7 kids TOTAL said they had ever been punched in the face. I think that is an absolute travesty... You learn something about yourself when you take a punch in the face for the first time, and each time after... It's wild to me! My friends and I started boxing when we were in 6th grade. We weren't any good, but we still did it and got better at it. But more importantly, we learned that fighting and boxing and throwing punches and taking punches is just another part of life and not to be put on the pedestal that it has been placed on now...
Great post.
DeleteOne of my fave movies lines of all time is from Fight Club.
"How much can you possibly know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?"
I think a lot of these youths think they will be just fine if that kind of situation arises, but if you have never been punched in the face, it is a very shocking experience and I've seen a lot of "tough" guys turtle the fuck up after taking one in the grill for the first time.
I think where a lot of people have gone wrong in this discussion is that they think I am in favor of violence. And I am. When it's called for. I am not in favor of unnecessary violence, or violence for the sake of it. I am all for kids duking it out to establish a pecking order. I don't condone bullying, however I do understand it as a normal part of growing up. And kids should learn the lesson that standing up to a bully is the best way to make it stop. Throwing kids in jail is fucking stupid and schools and parents that are for this, should be bitch slapped into eternity.
We need to be raising a society of young men that knows what it means to get into a fight, stop a bully, treat a lady proper, and own his problems.
Instead we are breeding a society of pussies that hide behind computers and talk shit, are socially awkward, cower at the first hint of adversity, lash out with killing instead of knuckling up to solve differences, and have no idea what it means to treat a lady with proper respect.
Things need to change in this country.
Feminism killed the "treat a lady with proper respect" part. Both in it's effects on women and on men.
DeleteWell said Paul, I couln't agree more.
ReplyDeleteDamm!, L-R-B is becoming one of my favourite reads; next I'm going to have the T-shirt as well!
Thanks man. Hold off on the t-shirt guy. I am going to have some new ones here soon for WAY cheaper and WAY more fucking awesome.
DeleteIt's no wonder that physical confrontation is dying out. In today's society (speaking in general, not just the US) physical domination and aggressiveness have become obsolete. There just isn't a need for that anymore. A true alpha male will never encounter physical adversity.
ReplyDeleteAlpha males of the modern world do not lift weights or fight other males for domination (at least not physically). Let us consider the definition of an alpha male:
"In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank."
"The alpha animals are given preference to be the first to eat and the first to mate; among some species they are the only animals in the pack allowed to mate."
Today alpha males are CEOs, CFOs, high-rolling investment bankers and the like. They dominate society 110% without ever having the need to 'throw down' or deadlift anything heavier than a briefcase. And they have the preference of being the first to eat and have their pick of mates. And laugh at us beta males who lift weights and train in "ultimate street fighting martial arts" to create the illusion of being alphas (which BTW nobody is buying).
Then there are the guys who don't even make the beta-cut. They are the (often mentally ill) cowards who need guns (and pro-gun laws) to feel "safe" or just better about themselves. But they are a story unto themselves. And they abounded even in the time when bullying and fistfights were accepted as a normal part of growing up, so the argument that they're a product of the general pussification doesn't really stand.
But if it makes one feel better... I guess we all believe in what we want to believe.
Fatman - Too much prosperity will breed weakness. This is a motto I believe to be unconditionally true.
DeleteLet me add however, that it's no good either to be strong like bull, smart like tractor.
ReplyDeleteEvery male out there should be trying to better himself physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. This is what alpha is really all about.
I'm sorry paul but your argument doesn't make any sense. You really need to list some scenarios of good reasons to fight and not to fight. Do you agree with Rick that self defense or defense of others is the only reason to get in a fight? It doesn't sound like it. It seems like you feel disrepect is enough to start a fight. And who exactly are pussies? I see you point on people shooting innocent people. But isn't it being the better person to solve a disagreement without violence and just ignoring idiotic words? Starting a physical confrontation shows a lack of emotional control and makes that person a pussy in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteMy argument makes all the sense in the world actually.
DeleteI think you and a whole bunch of other people completely missed the point of this opinion piece. I really do.
No where did I condone bullying. I said it's a normal part of growing up. The best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him. Generally that means letting him know you're not afraid to throw down.
The issue with our society now is, as you're proving, is that you think that ALL violence is bad. Two kids duking it out isn't exactly the fucking end of the world. It teaches kids some lessons, and it's part of growing up and perfectly healthy. Conflict resolution is something that is learned through the years.
When you're younger, you're generally not mature enough to do this with words. This is why young men get in fights. Most mature and grow out of this, and do in fact learn how to resolve disputes with words later. But it's perfectly normal part of growing up. I mean are there fights going on in the parking lot of your workplace weekly? What's that? NO? Sheesh, so mean these kids who fought all the time growing up grew out of it, and somehow found themselves in the adult workforce without social issues? No way.
Because of pacifist parents and a pussified society, now fighting can land a kid in handcuffs. This is retarded, and makes kids bottle up aggression. When that happens it's going to come out eventually in some other way. This is very basic psychology.
The fact that we have people arguing with me against some common fisticuffs really proves my point about how pussified we have become.